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Now onto this week’s show which was recorded late in 2019 when I was in Helsinki, Finland. I spoke with Sami Sahala, who focuses on Smart Cities and Smart Mobility at Forum Virium, the City of Helsinki’s Innovation Department. As you will hear, Helsinki has always been a leader in future mobility solutions and as such, Sami is a busy man, often presenting their work to other global cities that visit Helsinki to learn from their expertise.

In this episode, we’ll be answering some big questions, like:

  • What are the most important considerations when launching a city open data platform?
  • Is open data of lower quality useless?  Or can it still be useful for decision-making?
  • What is Helsinki, the city that gave rise to the Mobility-as-a-service concept,  focusing on now?


Welcome to the show! How are you doing, Sami?

Thanks. Glad to be here.


Well great. Yeah thanks for inviting me into your office today. And we're going to be speaking about smart ability on small cities and the work that you're doing here in Helsinki. Eh, so to get us going. Can you just briefly just cover bit about your background? How you first go into Helsinki?

Sure. Sure. First of all where we are is just forum . We are an in house innovation unit slash company of city of housing. So technically part of Syria organization where we are but the whole the company that they fully own but we also non profit. So that means to be all only work for the city. And on what we do is what we take it off. This multi activities more less will be a lot of stuff we do: Mobility; IoT ; wellbeing. Those are the primary areas that we work in and so we more or less speak, take care and do all the European proposals and end up running most of the year of in process on behalf of the city as well. That's that's what will be approaching organization. 50 people said it gives a little based funding, but most of the, most of the budget actually comes from just project funding.


Interesting. And So that funding, is that part of, are you one of, say, three cities that received that funding?

You don't believe there are only four city of Helsinki.

Oh. Okay, Okay. Okay. So you mentioned a lot of interesting stuff. There the IOT, the smart mobility. And before we were talking here, you categorized the different projects that you've got on the go here. Do you think you could possibly just describe how you categorize the projects that you got on which categories those are in?

Yeah, well, this comes from basic fact that I don't really like to start listing different process that we have to do. Every visitor that we have, I mean, seem to have a quite a lot of some lately. Again, we can go through that. What are the reasons for that? But But they must be a storyline kind of reason that what we are doing, all this process that we are, the way I'd be describing it is to do it kind of four segment that organization and part then of that list is the data point information which can be in different things, from sourcing the data, collecting, analyzing doing different stuff. With that on and off course, open data has been really big part of what Helsinki has been doing for over 10 years. I think we're still the second best open data city in the world.

We used to be the best part in New York. It's do it even more now. Harmonize interfaces, something that we've been doing quite a lot well for a long time. It's not just that what we do with the data, it's also that's a good way of of explaining how we try to do things differently. It's for public sector, it's it's not well to public sector it's really common to release only data that that you're really sure of, that it is actually perfect fact. If it's not, or you're just unsure with. You just don't release it. And for developers that that they don't really care thinking about it. The developers are quite use to building data new so some top of incomplete data sets. That's just fine as cities can do that in public sector in general can also do that as long as you're just also include information wise and perfect. Why there's a little gap. What what state? Hey hold on, metadata is really important. As long as you do that developers are happy. And I that's something that we've been managed to do as well. And I'm really happy for that. Kind of the other other example of that would be cities and the public sector in general again are used to owning everything. If you want something, you have some money in the budget. You put out a public tender, you buy or invest in something, then you own something. After that, you can release maybe some other data. Some just don't realize that that it doesn't always have to go that way it is is that I was talking. It actually is that there are data available for those who needed and then understanding that we are just one user of the data. That's something again that most cities haven't been able to to grasp that new kind of thinking. I think would be way on a good track with that. So she kind of a different type of approach, different kind of of thinking that we're trying to have in many things in by with what we're doing.


I'm interested. Has this always been the case with tagging the data quality? But right from the beginning, I know you're one of the first cities to open source your transport data, for example. Aint just that? Just Yeah, the or is it something that you learn over time?

Yeah. I think we learn it over time. That that was a good example of what happened with the China, brother. Yeah, but that was really good and really, really advanced thinking at the time that you stop developing the end users services are starting kicking off mobile app. So especially the iPhone was just coming out and all that. Nokias would be on sometimes. But I realized that that no, we should as as a public sector, we should focus on making sure that the data is as good as possible. Focusing on opening data and sharing that. Again, we spots unheard of for almost of today. Then also big part of that that we did then was to start a continuous support for the developing community. That, and that's been going on ever since. Like monthly meetings on different teams of not really a small data, of course.


What, is that forum verum leading those?

We are a good part of it. The city has their own development community and program, and more or less we are on top of it, together with the open data warehouse that we have. This actually a team doing that in city. So it's called heads in the go for data share. But yes, I want your team of, Let's call it data team that they are big part of that activity on. And then, of course, this from from HSL that the local transit authority that they have also their own activity. That's a lot of been doing in cooperation. But it;a a, it's trying to help that developers, rather than doing everything by ourselves that that was a big part of different thing and that being managed to do ages ago. I'm so happy that that hasn't been pioneering number.


You mentioned there about data quality and the importance. Maybe your focus is on data quality. Now, how are you sure that as a city that your data you're providing through the services is usable?

And yeah, yes. We should be doing the always on us. Well, let's say we are at the same time, there's value in the data that that is not the perfect. Recent example is a quality, a number of process is now going on now in Helsinki. Now what we now tracing partners and most of them are running some of the processes. The point here is that we do have development of high end centers and we have development of same or mid race and then some of them they have a time so they run around the city collecting information, not just station. And then what we've been doing here, our our team, has been doing cooperation of centers with the local residents, even putting the boxes together and families adopting sense of putting the balconies on and all that is shared on. Of course, there's a difference on the data quality of the high and censor. Or did this really cheap prosperity buys on. But then there's been a study by a meteorological institute, and the other the original environmental institute, is that it is to make sense. You can approximate, you calibrate stuff. Knowledge is good. It doesn't have to be always accept information. And then when you translate that to mobility data, you don't always need to have except numbers of how many cars were here or whatever you're measuring. But you have number of those sensors spread around sowing the change. I don't know that something is changing. Yeah, if you that multi percent they're showing up. That's good enough information already. Yeah, so sometimes the Mobility Data that that we need in different types of new services, it doesn't have to be exact numbers. It can be like kind of heat map type of information just as well.


Well, yeah, now it's very interesting point. It's kind of like rooting by agreement. If you have the more sensors you have. Even if it's not the really high quality sensors that still play a part in decision making.

It's nothing new. I remember that being done 10 years ago for Tumble in London as well, but kind of keep trying to give it another goal. Now, how about the sensors are going cheap and sort of kind of crowdsourcing. See this in part, is it based on an engagement Something that they tried to do quite a lot.


Okay, Yeah. One thing that you mentioned there that made me think about the past experience. I had was when I was in Copenhagen. I went to west south, and they've got lots of interesting innovation projects and one of them has to do with the air quality. And they're partnering with Google. Actually, to put air quality monitors on cars. Yeah, they drive, you know, Do you do any sort of collaborations with the other Nordic countries or?

Uh, yes, to kind of of of went over of us us for being project partner on behalf of city of Helsinki, it means that almost every project that we do, we have other city partners and most of them are European projects, not domestic ones. So almost always is the answer. And to of course to us to other cities are the most natural partner to be cooperating with. But then again, cooperation between City it's It's not that, you know, there's a lot to do their lot to learn there. So, of course, research and stress as well as companies maybe. Every project has a number of different partners from all fields. Always.


Yeah, okay. interesting. Thanks for that. So just before we move on from the data is really interested in open data. Generally, what are the old folks is at forum virium? Now, you looking to, bring online as much new sources as possible. Or is it some different strategy? What's your goal to pen data in the next.

No. I'm assuming that it has depended on really top open data cities for a change. Yeah, but I'd say when it comes to mobility data, we are not that good. To be honest, I don't tell anyone, but we are not that good with the real time data.

You know this is recording.

Now you tell me. There's a lot to do more with real time data. Not just the volume the the amount of data but different types of data that we want to catch and of course when it comes to mobility services, they it's good to have studies the experts, it even better to know what the situation is now or even better, would be not what about the cities and change in half and half hour from now. So that's the direction that we should be working on and under. Hopefully, we're going to get little budget for that starting next year. You know, that gives us okay, lot more resources to do this stuff together with the City Department. So ask me again in one or two years, we should be much better on that side. But then the other thing that I kind of mentioned is the is the crowdsourcing, kind of hard to engage citizens. How did that participate? Not such that they're out of the center, that's a really simple case. But how to get information from them? How kind of feelings and open ears. Yeah, that kind of that's kind of information we need more and more And and then the idea other side of the tough job is that how do you make use of the data That's going to be difficult as well. We want to also not quantity data but quality data. You know, under the skin of of those people that that, So why did you choose bicycle right now? Something else that with the information that doesn't really exist yet. Yeah, that's something you know, really, really want to explore.

So do you have projects that trying to explore those avenues?

Yeah, Yeah, I think that comes through the last segment the behavior changed. We need to know how people think in order to influence that. And a, there's one project specially called MUV. The how can we do in terms of Gamification to collect the information as well as that interest people in general. And That's that's what we've had a couple of once in the past as well. It's really interesting area.

Okay, great. And as I mentioned, I first came across the fabulous project that which is on autonomous buses and part of that it was actually use of feedback, saying the citizens of Helsinki actually quite like autonomous buses and something there was another.

There was a study about that. That's something quite often to visit as well and wonder why? Why is that? I don't know. We well, we used to have Nokia on. We've always been like tech savvy people, fairly educated, like every person in Finland, from a total of two to really old persons. They all have smartphones. They all can use those smartphones. Yeah, more or less. And that is already is a bit from to build new innovation or to get to get people engaged. And not being too afraid of new ways of doing things. It can be new technology it sometimes it just can be new way of doing things, but it's with the aid of some digital means, but that's really good for us. That's a good kind of fertile, crowned, introduced, but they're fabulous now that you mention that that that's stating kind of second segment of where our project land, which I maybe should call new technology or it's about finding out what new technology is all about, so we don't really do need. We don't develop new technology. We don't fund developing of new technology. So what we do is trying to learn from it and what's in it for us. What is the best use case for different type of new technology?

One of the best benefits potential benefits out of that new technology in the future. We should learn that and then it comes of course back to city planning the that, Let's say, for the most part it is is that so what's going to change? What's going to work? How is city planning going to change? So what are the new requirements for city planning? But it comes to land use infrastructure, but also other start when it comes to, let's say, Do we need a five G network somewhere for them. And all the apps of questions in between. But that's that will be doing this. That's a number of different types of project of we will be doing. That with the spotlight has been quite a lot on autonomous stuff. It's barely the buses that they've been running them. I'm on normal traffic for many years now, but also this this number of trials that we've been doing. For example, just think of autonomous Lawn mower.

It goes around quite perfectly and does one part by itself. It shouldn't be that hard to then have that transport itself to the next park and keep on going and things like that. They have a really kind of direct, a quick impact under the line whereas the buses and something, honestly, for the future, that, of course, that's a bigger thing. But we could also at the same time look at they kind of blowing influence at the same time on. And then somewhere there is sort of almost logistics as well. So as I've mentioned, we've been running autonomous buses, in this case, in normal traffic for many years now, reasonable but at least that began. Told that many legislation is really supportive, allows us to do uh, quite a lot. It allows us to do that quite quickly and smoothly as well. So there's a lot of them the the national government for that. We learn how those buses behave, how people behave in those buses, how the other traffic around those buses behaves that the other stuff.

You're cleansing data from other sensors and stuff.

Yeah. We've been doing that. But not that much, basically, because the we don't develop any cost themselves the data. We rent them in one guess we have both one, but still doesn't help us. We don't really get that data out of those costs. It's it's still the domain of the manufacturer. But then again, I'm not sure we have such should have all the data. We don't need that more for research is more for the technology development to do that, what we need more is better understanding of how things work. What's needed from us should be maybe approach the public in some way or so stop thinking of infrastructure in a different way and all that. That's what we're going to do. And that's that's something that we learn that, to be honest, the the current level of technology it's it's not that fast really. I mean uh, come a little bit of of rain, or what this false, let's say a falling leaves falling out of trees at this time of year. Hey, winter snow. It's it's they stop. But basically our target is that we're calling the other responses for a reason. They should be part of public transport at someday. Yeah, so we don't know what kind of public transport that is, but that's what we're learning. But they should be able to run every day if it's public transport. And so, So fabulous is a project that is trying to push that technology to have the second generation where he calls that can operate 24/7 if needed, every kind of weather, but that also links to innovative procurement.

It's not that we are just asking companies to do that, but it's more about how to use the public money in a way that it actually spots innovation. That's something called pre commercial procurement model that we are using the European horizon process as well. Person can find other cities part of it and it's a kind of fun little model where there are three different phases and its phases, some of them will drop, and in the end, two or three construction will be able to develop what they've been planning on and kind of proposing that they would be doing, and it looks beautiful and all that on. They will then start, uh, piloting and demonstrating the new technology. That will happen April next year. So last, how come nobody except data that's going to stop us. But when you come back to Helsinki next time it will be, anyway, we'll just keep this in mind, everyone. Transport Research Arena so TRA conference, uh, a little will be be inheriting gave the last week of April and then also they need next generation buses will be operating there. Yes, in real public transport order was published. That's what we are on a procuring in a way, that's something.


Great! Interesting! Okay, one question I've got about the Thomas Transportation stable is to a to mention autonomy without talking about jobs. On the other hand, so do you have any work streams in place? To re skill people with that perhaps?

With us in for... Really? Not so much. There's the part of what city is doing. See if anything is doing is it's look at autonomy robotics, a eye on how to get benefits all of that. So that's a much bigger kind of program that's running there. On part of that, I don't believe it is to get that as well. But it's not about retraining people to put on your job. It's about that bigger disruption on the job market that's going to happen and how to cope with that as that slide them off away. So probably yes, but the answer might be a bit more complex that, yeah, that's difficult. Yeah that was good. Not my expertise anyway. So, yeah, we go through the four segments, the then the third segment is basically a different kind of services, and that means physical mobility services, thinking of new type of gadgets that you see lying around sidewalks everywhere. On and of course, it's your services. So physical services maybe also been promoting again. We are not developing them ourselves. That's not the point. We help and enable local businesses, everyone else, to develop that, come to Helsinki and pilot and demonstrate on do all that. And then we make sure that that the local public knows about it tries about it, gives feedback about it then.


So you're talking about like the skeeters, the well skeeters

Yeah, but well, of course, there's no kind of piloting them that it's kind of commercial business already Yeah, although there's one bite of them in Eastern Healthy Game HSL, the the Transit Authority is conducting that. It's about trying out how well East coders beats are Station based would work as a district level. Or maybe see the level part of part of public transport in a way. Yeah, so that's trial that's been running this summer. Will run I don't know, probably when, until the snow comes.

So that's the in collaboration with those technology companies. Would you be starting your own?

So there's no, we don't. But then again, I can't speak on behalf of Transit Authority that what they're doing. But that's kind of part of what we do is to range different kind of piloting all the time we call. Sometimes we call it that's I piloting that's going really small scale quick pilots in rapid cycle. Sometimes we do a little funding for the one. It's not about funding the bit up development of anything. It's more of like trying to help cover the piloting costs. That's small money, but it's still a little bit of funding. But then the companies also like that quite a lot not just the mobility arrange. It's it all smart city activities, people doing that for many years. Companies like it if it's a prototype system, if it's not really commercial yet and needs to be developed. But they can develop that in a real in life environment. And they get to have the local citizens to actually use them. Keeps and reorganize, um, some co-creation activities and stuff. It's it's it's been working really, really well, I don't know. That's said.


Say, so do you provide any additional support or no services help for these?

So, yeah, of course, depending on the developments we're talking about. What happened to me, it's like they need have some needs regarding infrastructure, for example. Yeah, we do that. Trying to help them call with city bureaucracy, for example. Sometimes be consistent at it. Something in there that needs to be done, a different fight of of sometimes the non monetary help is more important than actually giving handed out of some money. So that's what we tried to do. Trying to be in between the companies and city to really make it a big more starter. Yeah, try new stuff.


So you mentioned being in the middle of that between the new technology services and the city and, I guess by proxy, the infrastructure that is needed to support these new services.

Yes, but then, of course, the question is that we don't know beforehand. We have to try. And that's one of the reasons why we pilot in a small scale first. And our job as as kind of innovation company is to do that on behalf of the city we should kind of learn .Maybe I dropped some of of the practices from start up, seeing with me quite big with to start upstream, nothing, so to try to learn, try and fail every once in a while. That's good learning curve as well. That's our job, and it's kind of really fun job to be to be able to do that. But then again, I must say that we are blessed in Finland as a whole. It's a national level as well, a city level that we do have this more or less trialing culture, as we call it. Yeah, that's public sector. It's been pushed to do. Not everything needs to be planned for 50 years. It's sometimes we can do something you know, just be more at rapid and just try it out first on the... And that that's good thing. I don't see a lot of benefits with that.


Yeah, I think that's definitely a really positive thing for citizens. Do you think there's on the flip side? Maybe a problem whereby you try and move from the pilot project to a heavily launched service? Just any challenges in it?

Yes, that's always something that I do that sometimes. But sometimes they are able to help to basically pick it up, and then it can fly. Yeah, right straight away. Sometimes they did help is in a form of we can manage, we managed to do both different companies together. They find each other and actually come up with their kind of combine mixed version product, maybe. That's seems to be beneficial sometimes as well. Uh, it can be different things. It's a different ways. How we how we manage to do that?


Oh. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah. Doctor services. Yeah, the physical services. Maybe we'll try to encourage them at something that that be being also doing is looking at not just the most obvious ones with thinking of bicycles and school those. It's our the hot topic everywhere but trying to look at what? What would we need in Helsinki? On and of course, it's not us coming up with innovation. It comes from the start up some companies have enough the innovation spot. Then they try to work with them. And one really good example of that is a company called Boat B O U T. But what they are more It's like you better for small boats. So looking at that, the aerial view of Helsinki there's a lot of archipelago everywhere, you know, just scattered around the entire. But there's very little kind of organized, very traffic to these islands. But in Finland in general, people on a lot of boats, like small both without boards like five meters, six meters boats and what can be organized be a better type of, It's brilliant and really keen to see that how differently flies and costly. I think the idea is solid, there's a demand for it, and the guys have been perfecting that that, the software and the background for it. Yeah, that's this summer. It's been kind of first trial year and next year will be a full-on big-time commercial version. But that's a That's a good example of what we can maybe find out with this type of for open calls for mobility innovation. Yeah, that's something, then the other thing about services. I'm unsure. This is also it's not just the physical ones, but of course, that's what we are most famous for. That's the mobility, a associative concept. Basically, we are of the originating city in a way and then this number of companies developing that on. And we do have one company with, uh, a commercial product of being in the market for couple of years now.

And that win?

Yes, that's that's supportive, but also what we kind of kinda doing on up. Is is kind of explaining that kind of background and the reasoning for different kind of a low. This this, this concept and and different ways of how ta maybe implement that, How to approach that, that whole idea, you know? And so that's why we have lots of see other cities and well public sector ministries, other stakeholders visiting here all the time, so I'd say two international delicates, should be coming just to learn more.

it's where they from all over the world, all over the world.

Yeah, thing, of course. Over time it changes. Okay, currently, two Japanese are really active like usually active about it. Yeah,


Another implementing the stuff that you teach them back up

Yeah, yeah, of course. We can't really the age of consult. It's kind of really small, short kind of. Just trying to let them understand and see a bigger picture around it, not just go out and buy a mosque. Course you can't really do that, but just trying to let them understand that that what are the different kind of a building blocks and elements that you need to do more homework on before you decide what kind of march. How to approach that. What is the public sector's role versus what is the private sector doing? There's a number of things that it's it's really more so. It's a really, really simple idea, such that you can buy everything from being in one app. It's always, said Telecom, how it works in the same way that you have one operator for watching everything and also there's a roaming. When you go the Northern city, but see actually look at how to get there as a city or maybe as a company, it becomes a bit more complex. So that's a lot. But I'm happy to tell everyone that what we've done, what we've learned here. I always tell everybody that don't look at housing it of how things should be done. Let me tell you what. What? You shouldn't be a label or anything, everything the hard way. But I'm happy to tell everyone that that that also the lessons learned.


Yeah. And also it's very contextual, right? Your small ability journeys very specific to Helsinki.

Yeah, we'll sort of go in to see the It's already been a while. Yeah, no. Yes, it is very much different. That's true like that. These are all the culture that's true.

What people are willing to use and pay for. Okay, interesting.

But yeah, then then finally, the last segment, I kind of mentioned it already but the could look at it another way that NBC is really trouble with the climate targets at the moment. How to get there and then what you can do with the city's, well, the basic to locate it for cities is to the infrastructure planning plan, land use order, that's they build and then maintain and plan infrastructure. So meaning that they feel a bit more basicalized. There will be more people using them easy. But then, then what you can do is this regulation. Cities have a number of cities have already for example banned diesel cars in the city center, different kind of environmental zones out there, then the technology part that helps that that you can electrified everything in even leaving combustion engines are getting more efficient, so that's already covering part of the target. New services help you, so you have something else to choose from, um, other than just your own car. But all this doesn't matter. And unless people change their behavior, so that's the last corner what we need to work on. How to get people also think in a different way adopt new ways of thinking about mobility and then using the app mobility. So the biologic cause that in order to use something else on their own car, you need to have options and those options need to be convenient and simple and easy to use. And, of course, they shouldn't be too expensive. But you need to have options, and you need to make it as easy as possible to use all those options. So they're in the two elements. We actually what kind of like to have different options. So in that sense, all these scooters are lying around in the sidewalk. They are good thing because they are options to choose instead of your own car in it. And then there probably the service concept to make it as easy as possible to use every one of them not having to have 20 something apps in your phone just for helping getting old. You're not in the city and have a different set of apps. That's why that's why those students are important, innovative new services, physical transport services and the concept of how to use that in the most easy and efficient way.

Yeah, I agree that the behavior change pieces. Probably most important.

Yeah it's coming more and more important on Central to many cities thinking about what they should do.


What specifically is Helsinki addressing the problem?

First. Well, this, we do have mass already. Then, then it's not that that every person should start just using that. But the point is that March is a good way on as well as just having car sharing on different kinds, of new services out that they all help people every once in a while starting on something. Okay, there's a new service, maybe I should try that. That and what we should do is not enforced people to change their behavior. But that's kind of traditional what we bought Western but instead of fix you some kind of something. So actually your target would be that should be that people should actually be willing to to choose something else in their own car. So that means that it needs to be easy, needs to be convenient and of suit their needs, but also make it in a way, maybe more interesting in that we can do you some Gamification and incentives, and I'm trying to maybe make it fun. There's some prizes or something again. There's no one way of of doing that, but that can be trying to use and try first, different types of of approaches is how to get a behavior to start. Then the the old ways of doing that with campaigning, that something else. That, of course, they're still there probably. But with all these new say, it's services means and news services, and these these new concepts like Mask. What can be paying extra on that on and of in hearts, especially that corner of our story.


Great. Yeah, it's a really exciting time for I think in first. generally, in this technology,

isn't it, isn't it? Yes, they know it's It's the most interesting time ever, probably to be working in transport


For just summarize what we've gone through this. This the information in the data quarter. Then it's the new technologies that you're working with. The service providers. Then finally, it's that behavior change.

That's definitely needed as well.

Okay, well, we're slowly running out of time. I've had a really good conversation here.

Yeah, you probably had a lot of questions about it but I only asked it one. Hopefully that said, it's somewhat efficient at the same time,

No. Yeah it was great. I just want to finish with the quick fire around. That's variable questions and just the first thing that comes in your head like 20 seconds one each. So if you could change one thing about the finish mobility or transportation sector, If you could change it overnight, what would it be?

What? The moment they still a little bit struggling with getting everyone on board the mobility service concept. We even have, Ah, a new legislation that says, that if your transport about it you need to open up your interfaces is not just the date up. Also, let third parties to resell your interface on this some challenges now on enforcing that new legislation on. And if I get to change something overnight, they said that all these companies for be to actively developing and and also actually warning mass company different mass companies different their bodies to resell their services. That that's how they succeed. That would be really critical.


Okay, so are you a reader? And if you're what book should everyone be reading? Does it have to be mobility related?

Then the answer is the one that I'm going to write. No, this, uh, but it's kind of you heard it here first. Type of thing about about this has been every once in a while question that that this is kind of Helsinki's mobility service story being the the originating city and kind of how how everything happened. But also that one other reasons for us behind that that basically all that all these weekly delegations, what they asked me Just document that somehow if you call a book, that would be kind of sounds fancy make your life easier.

Just read the book!

Exactly you guess it, right? That is honestly one of the reasons it could be series of books. I don't know about it might make sense may ever I find some time to do that though. But that would just be the book to read. Of course.


Good answer. Well, when you do write it, let me know first. I'll buy. What is your goals are for? Forum Virium and these, these smart lability projects, what's the one thing you want to achieve in the next few years?

Well, Helsinki's doesn't really have similar or us diet, transport mobility challenges, a small cities. You don't really have similar kind of contrast in level or quality issues, but we still have ah say of different types of balances and also in the future, instance, everything is growing a lot, especially right around the city center. So we need to be proactive and kind of have that vision that that What should we do? What is the Helsinki's mobility system. I'm not talking about not really talking about the kind of traffic system planning type of approach, many all against traffic system. But maybe I should talk about mobility decision, which also look at the people themselves under a different services there. I don't have that vision that that this is the possible, potentially the one scenario that that will happen. And then how should Helsinki approach that something kind of that's a work that we need to do in Helsinki. And that's good for almost acute challenges at the moment.


Okay, great. And the last question is, as you know, I'm traveling around different cities, interviewing the most innovative people that I've come across. But especially it's not cities and A C industries. You must know a lot of people, a lot of clever people who do you think is the one person that you know, that is constantly pushing the boundaries in terms of innovation. You should go meet?

Yeah, there's so many to mention. Of course, we could mention number of friends, than that thinking, especially they're the ones working on developing mobility service. That's that that's kind of leading the ones in the world. So that's it. I would say. Some are here and then some of his colleagues of most global or say big commentor , say duty company, for example? Yeah, those guys can I just point, you may be to Tallinn that that's good option as well. We do a lot of cooperation with the city of Tallinn in the story, and we kinda of Helsinki's and Tallinn are kind of twin cities or approaching to be once in the future. So that would be interesting. There's a lot of new innovation they are going to. A chile. People that yeah, a chile society in a way that's interesting places will.

Excellent. Well, thanks so much for your time today. I've really enjoyed chatting with, you know, You know, I enjoyed it.

Yeah Absolutely. Absolutely. Pleasure is mine.

Thank you very much.